Jason
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[00:00:00] Episode one of the Bighearted podcast. We are so excited to have Dr. Jason freshman on with us today, all the way from the USA in a little place called Vermont. We talked about some amazing concepts and ideas. All around storytelling and including dads into the education space. Some tips on how to invite the dads gentle ways that make them feel really special and included in the process of their child's learning journey.

[00:00:34] We did talk about. Stories as well and how important they are to the children, and tips and hints that can help you in your journey as a storyteller as well. So we were so excited that we also talked about Jason's course that he has happening called The Journeymen, and you will find information of that in the show notes.[00:01:00] 

[00:01:00] So let's get into it. We just had a great time, Jason and I. It was so much fun chatting with him. In fact, we chatted for a little while afterwards as well and decided that we'd love to, to keep in touch. So it was wonderful. I hope you enjoy the podcast. We would absolutely love your feedback being that we are just new to this whole game.

[00:01:19] So making things better is always something that we are looking to do. If you have feedback, please share. We love it. We love hearing it all. Okay, we'll get into it now. Enjoy.

[00:01:30] Hello, hello, and welcome to the Bighearted Podcast. My name is Victoria Edmond, and I am your host. Our aim here at the Bighearted Podcast is to nurture a community of heart centered educators to change the perception and delivery of early childhood education and care in Australia and ultimately around the world.

[00:01:52] We want you to be inspired by our guests and the topics we bring to you to think of new ways of being as an educator. [00:02:00] We want you to feel a sense of belonging via this podcast so that you can engage any time of the day or night in any place that suits you. We want you to become an educator that delivers education from the heart, as we believe this is how we create great change within our world.

[00:02:17] So join us as we discover new ways to inspire each other here on the Big Hearted podcast.

[00:02:30] Jason, welcome to the podcast today.

[00:02:33] Thank you so much for coming. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad after all of our back and forth, it's really nice to be talking to you, . Yeah, it's been a journey. So obviously Jason's in the US and we're obviously in Australia. So it's been a bit of a process to try and make sure that we could meet it at a decent time for both of us, and fortunately for us, Jason's working late at night, so he's able to join us today.

[00:02:57] So you guys are heading [00:03:00] into autumn, I believe. And we are coming, Well, we're in spring now, so yeah, getting a bit cooler and darker at your place too, I imagine. , the foliage is beautiful and we're just getting ready to get our wood stove started. Uh, beautiful. I think we had our last fire last week. It's now definitely.

[00:03:17] It's getting hot here now in Australia. . Wonderful. I just obviously shared your bio with everybody, but would you like to share a little bit more about yourself and tell us sort of how you actually ended up getting to where you are right now? Oh goodness. That's an adventure in and of itself. Well, I would say I have.

[00:03:39] Always, always loved stories and I've always loved helping. My mother was an early childhood educator and I remember as early as I could, I wanted to skip school and go work with her, so I would always, as a kid, I used to say, I love working with kids. And so that directed me very early on, [00:04:00] and I think right out of undergrad I discovered a program.

[00:04:04] Someone said, Oh, this will probably be for you. And I wound up moving to the other side of our country to get a degree in something called adventure therapy, which actually is much bigger over by you all, and it's not as well known here. So I have to still explain what adventure therapy is. Pretty often when I'm talking to people here in Vermont.

[00:04:23] But with adventure therapy, I sort of found my group, I found my people, people who wanted to make change. Not in the typical way of doing psychotherapy, of sitting and talking, but of actually going out, being in the world. And that was my first sort of official training. And then right after that adventure training, I went off and.

[00:04:45] Hiked in the woods for about five or six months and had this revelation that I'd been trained in all of these wonderful, you know, very different alternative ways of therapy. I wanted to try a traditional way, so after being in the woods for five and a half [00:05:00] months, Within two days I was up and I was in Boston City, in Massachusetts here, and I was working with school kids full time in an office right away doing that.

[00:05:11] And that didn't work for me. , I'm not surprised. . No, it didn't work. I loved it. I loved the kids and I loved the people I worked with. But again, I was working, My first office was a bathroom that they'd put a table over the toilet, and we could touch all four. Oh wow. It was with elementary school kids. Wow.

[00:05:33] Yes. No, no trees. But I went back to school cause I couldn't do that. And my doctorate was focused on narrative therapy. And so I tell people I'm an adventure storyteller or a storytelling adventure either way. Right. Yeah. And for me, stories and the metaphor of adventure or journeys, Are the way that we heal and the way that we connect and the way that we grow.

[00:05:59] [00:06:00] And from little, little ones all the way up to adults, the stories that we tell and that are told about ourselves, they're what constitute and create the reality that we live in. And so we can have a part in that. And so as a parent and as someone who's worked with young kids, I've always felt really.

[00:06:19] Driven to help little ones start to build their own stories of themselves and start to like hear their own stories from the adults, but then also tell their own stories. That's been really the passion of what's driven me all the way up to doing what I do today. That's amazing. Stories have such incredible weight.

[00:06:40] That was how we shared our history for so long. And for me, even now, like I'm in social media and quite often I used to read a lot, but I tend to get sucked into the social media world when I pick up a book and I make that time to read. To just like my daughter yesterday came and my 18 [00:07:00] year old came out yesterday and she goes, Oh, I've just been crying.

[00:07:02] And I'm like, Why? She goes, Oh, the book I've read, it's just, and I'm like, Oh, and you're devastated cuz like we're all going on with life as if this catastrophe has not happened yet. You've been so absorbed in that world. And that's what happens to me too. But that art of. Oral storytelling is so powerful and there's such a space for it in the early childhood realm.

[00:07:27] In fact, I tell stories all day long, it's a wonderful author Susan Perro, when she writes these incredible books in Australia around, you know, helping with behaviors and guiding children through difficult, you know, loss and tragedies and things like that. So I imagine you've got. Huge bank of stories then with all the adventures that you've had.

[00:07:50] My stories, I'm also. An avid reader of folk tales and folk stories and mythology, things like that because there's so much in [00:08:00] those stories that can help us. Um, so everything from our personal stories, like, you know, I can tell you stories about hiking and those things, all the way to made up stories. Or folk tales and folklore in mythology.

[00:08:14] I think there is so much in all of that that we can take that my kids, when they're not feeling particular, patients are like, We don't want another story. Papa . Oh yes. That's rare though. They begin to clue on that. Oh, there's a lesson here, . What's he trying to tell me without telling me? ? My kids have two parents who are.

[00:08:36] Both their mom and I. So they're, Yeah, they're in trouble. . Yeah. That's so funny. Oh dear. Yeah, I loved to tell stories. I particularly love the made up ones with the young children, and then when they pick up on it and they start, there's always a certain. Turning point and they start to engage in that telling of stories.

[00:08:56] And the humor that these children [00:09:00] have is hilarious. We had children here cuz I used to run the family daycare here myself as well. And there was this one particular little boy, I'll never, ever, ever forget him. Ash was his name and. He would tell jokes and jokes to me are very similar in the similar vein as stories because they would just go on and on and on and on and he would have all three children at the lunch table and myself included in hysterics.

[00:09:26] With his stories and then when he wasn't there, the other children would take up the mantle and try and keep it going. But you know, there's some people that are just absolute natural story tellers and this little boy Ash was definitely one of them. It's such a great way to create connection and that's one of the things that I really loved when I looked in, started looking at at your work is that these incredible.

[00:09:50] Theme of connection that runs through everything that you do. And I just love how you relate it back to your children [00:10:00] so that it becomes something that other people can relate back to their own stories. And it's also real, it's so authentic. And I just loved, I saw the pictures earlier this morning about when you were fishing with the boys and your son said something like, We're not, What did he say?

[00:10:17] We're not catching fish. We're fishing for fish. It was something along those lines. It was a very, Well, I think it's, you know, there's a reason why it's not called catching or something like that, right? Yes. Because you know, he chose a place, I don't know if this was the one, there's a couple of pictures, but I've taught them how to like read the river and pick what are good spots to go fishing, and he chose a spot that by all account.

[00:10:41] There were gonna be no fish. Yeah. And he very sort of independently walked waist deep in and started casting and I said, What are you doing? Like this is not, And he said, But papa, It's really beautiful. Yeah, it's really beautiful here. And we're fishing, we're not catching. And I said, Okay. And he sat for over two [00:11:00] hours knowing full well he was not gonna catch anything.

[00:11:03] And just casted. Paly. Yeah. For the whole time. It was beautiful. Isn't it funny when we can create that space for children, they will tell us what they need. And obviously for him, it wasn't the idea of catching fish, it was just the being together and the enjoying of that space and really just. Being in your body in that moment.

[00:11:27] And I just think it's when we over program and overstimulate the children, they don't have that opportunity to just be in those moments. One of the things that I read on your link in Bio blog that it takes you, that I really liked, and if it's okay, I'd like to share this little excerpt and we can talk a little bit about it.

[00:11:48] And it goes, So I delved into the ordinary slices of everyday life with renewed vig. Interest and curiosity. New plots, themes and narrative arcs emerged. Patents played [00:12:00] out repeatedly. The ordinary adventure has its own narrative arc. Once seen, I noticed it everywhere. It's the hidden half of all of our stories.

[00:12:10] Now I love this idea because we have a huge focus within our service and the things that we're sharing with educators about finding that ebb and flow in the day and keeping things as rhythmical and very similar throughout the day. You obviously have these, you know, arcs and things as you say, but that making, finding the joy in what a lot of us sees, the mundane, I just feel like.

[00:12:36] An art that's almost somewhat lost nowadays. What do you think about that? Oh, I think very much so. You know, you hear everything is supposed to be epic or you know, bigger than life or we've got, we're so busy or we're, you know, all of those things when you know if we're gonna clean the bathroom. You know, we're [00:13:00] always gonna have good music on and we're gonna sort of dance a little bit while we're doing it.

[00:13:03] It's still, excuse my, you know, language, but it's still a crappy job. But , it's gonna be better if we have our sort of hard in it, if we have our connection to why we're doing it. Right. And that's the challenge that I give to anyone who's with kids, is even the most every day normal, small, mundane activities.

[00:13:28] Why are we doing it? What's our value? What's our intention behind that? Yeah, and you know, to use the bathroom experi example, I personally don't value a clean bathroom. My wife would be very upset to hear that, but that's not a value. That's not why I do it. I do it because I value, and my wife and I both share this value of having a warm, cozy, inviting home.

[00:13:50] Mm. And having a bathroom that smells is not warm, cozy, or inviting. No. I, So my values drive this activity, which is really a [00:14:00] drudge if we look at it in one way. Mm. But the idea of being able to know my values, set an intention and be there. For all of these chores. You know, having good music helps having it happen at a regular time each week helps like all of those things.

[00:14:16] We set up the structure, we set up the framework, and then we can like really enjoy those mundane, everyday things at a level that is energizing and connecting. And you know, it could happen at schools, it happens at homes, it happens everywhere in between because what we do, That is also the story that we're living.

[00:14:36] Right. Why we're doing and what we're doing each and every day. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You know, it's, it's success doesn't come from one act. Like very occasionally it does, but success is built on a series of. Repeated experiences and actions. So I think what we miss [00:15:00] out teaching children a lot is that resilience and perseverance and having to use their internal will forces to actually push through.

[00:15:10] That's one thing that I notice. You know, children are sat up all the time. You know, they're in those little bamboo seat things where they sit passively and they just watch what's happening, but they then have no drive to get up themselves and move themselves. So that continues all the way along, right up.

[00:15:31] Adulthood where you're starting to see now that there is that loss of drive and passion and as you say, finding the joy in those mundane things and realizing that these are actually the singular words that join an entire story together. If you miss those, yeah, if you miss those important connections, then your story become, Limp, , lame.

[00:15:59] It's not [00:16:00] complete. And yeah, I really, really love that idea of, you know, those ordinary adventures. And if we can come from early childhood educator perspective to the children, what a. Gift to say that we're on an adventure to, you know, pick up our toys today and to make our space ready for tomorrow. And if we can come from that perspective, like the lightness that actually comes into my body just from even considering that is huge.

[00:16:30] What a great. Awesome experience to share with everybody. . It is. It's so powerful. I find it, you know, and it's not perfect. I mean, I think you mentioned before that a lot of my Instagram and stuff is also very real. I've talked about the mess that our mornings sometimes are, and you know, there's a real practicality, but that's part of it as well.

[00:16:51] Right? Every. Adventure. Whether it's ordinary or extraordinary has obstacles. It has challenges. It has the muck that [00:17:00] we get stuck in. Without that, there's no place to grow. Yeah, there's no place to go. And so we have to say like, All right, my goal is to have this joyous cleanup time with my children. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

[00:17:15] And that's all right. Because if I hold the map, if I hold the idea that this is an adventure, this is a journey. Then when the mucks there, my kids are gonna watch what I do. They're gonna watch how I interact with this. You know, like we're cleaning up and all of a sudden glass of a picture of water breaks and goes everywhere.

[00:17:36] And you know, we're set behind, you know, whatever it is. If I can, and I can't always, but if I can approach it, like the adventure truly is, think about how much richer each and every experience is. It's not just about getting to the mountain, it's. Or not getting to the top of the mountain. It's about the whole adventure there.

[00:17:56] It's about the whole trip. Yeah. It takes away [00:18:00] like helps with presence being in the moment because you're thinking about actually what you're doing as opposed to. Where you're going. And I mean, it's important to know where you're going, but it's also really important to watch where you are walking on the path because you know, we're coming into snake season in Australia and we don't wanna stand on something, you know?

[00:18:20] So being aware of your surroundings and in the present moment, and it's such a gift to give to the little children because. You know, the children of today's world are very busy. They're not often home. They quite often don't have these regular bed times. They're quite, some children don't even have stories read to them, you know, before bed and you know, they're just on a device and all these sorts of things.

[00:18:44] So when we can create that space, Within our early childhood settings, then we are giving the children the gift of actually being able to drop right into this present moment and to explore the possibilities of play. And as a teacher, when you [00:19:00] bring storytelling into that, you can guide children so gently.

[00:19:06] Without really them even realizing what's happening. And that's a real skill to learn. So do you have any suggestions on how educators could incorporate more of that into their work? Well, sure. You know, I think for one, let's expand what a story is because so much of what a story that we're told in our sort of modern day is, you know, Kind of the hero's journey, right?

[00:19:35] There's the main character. The main character goes off, it has some trials and tribulations and you know, does some things and challenges, and then good or bad happens, and then they come home, right? There's a general story. Story has a beginning, a middle, and an end, right? I would argue that every story is only a middle.

[00:19:54] and at the beginning of the end we manufacture. But the truth is, you can start any story in the middle and [00:20:00] stop it in the middle, and that's okay. Mm. And so if we broaden what a story is and we're with little ones, then we can follow and guide what they're doing. So it's either we tell a story and then watch how they play, or we watch how they play and then tell a story.

[00:20:16] It can be either or, right? Yeah. Yeah. Depending on where the kids are at, they have dropped you or you have dropped them into the middle of something, into the middle of a story. Where there are characters, there is conflict, there is challenge, there is growth, there is, you know, all of those things. And as you are aware of.

[00:20:36] Them. Hey, you know what? I've trained and actually done some work with teachers on this model of the ordinary. I actually call it the foundational adventure. Now. It's been a little bit since I wrote that, but, you know, foundational adventures. The narrative of that is that we first train, so we start learning.

[00:20:54] We, whatever it is we're learning, whatever that is, we can tell a story about learning how to fly, how to [00:21:00] paint, how to, you know, whatever it is. So we train. The next thing is we. So we take. The skills that we learned and we test them out. Let me draw a painting. Let me put away the blocks. Let me jump off a bench and see if I'm flying.

[00:21:15] You know, whatever it is. Yeah. We test it and we see how we feel and we see where we're at. And then finally we tell, So there's training, testing, telling, and the telling is when we share, it's rather we gather around the campfire and we tell what happened over the day and things like that. So if you're telling a story and you think about.

[00:21:36] All right, well, what did we learn and then how did we like test it out? What happened, what was in the middle there? And then. How do we tell people about it? And when we tell, remember we change. We tell our story and And we grow too. And so the characters in your story, when they tell their story, they grow.

[00:21:53] Yeah. And this story and the characters develop and when kids hear characters developing, they know they can as well. [00:22:00] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Do you know I used to read to the children enlighten books and I, at rest time, I don't know if you've, you would've heard of Enlighten for sure. Yeah. She's a English author from, you know, it sounds familiar, but I'm not pulling them up, but I, I magic her name down the Magic Far Away Tree and the wishing Chair.

[00:22:24] So, Oh, they're incredible stories. There's moon face and there's the washer woman. I can't remember them now that I'm telling you about them, but, um, they were, and for some reason, whenever I would read these stories, because they're written, Oh, Way back in the sixties, I think maybe, maybe even before then.

[00:22:44] And they're so wholesome. You know, the children have to do tasks for their mother before they can go into the forest, into the magic far away tree and this magic far away trees. This you. Enormous tree, and there's all these characters [00:23:00] that live within the tree. And at the top of the tree is the cloud, and they have to climb right to the very top.

[00:23:07] And once they get to the top and they get through the cloud, it's always a mystery as to what land is going to be at the top of the tree. And so all these characters. Go and they have these wonderful adventures. And for some reason, whenever I read in Alight stories, I read it in an English accent that's very proper and very slow.

[00:23:27] So you're taking on these characters that the children begin to enjoy, you know, and they look for those sorts of things. So, Even if you can't tell stories from your own self at the beginning, finding things like these in alighted books or the Susan Perro books that we talked about earlier are really great tools to be able to get you into that.

[00:23:51] Imaginative area because you've really gotta activate that imagination yourself to be able to come up with these stories. So I really [00:24:00] do love that whole concept of, you know, practicing and then testing and then telling. And when you work with little children, they're not gonna laugh at you, They. Tell you honestly , that wasn't a good story and you'll know that that testified well.

[00:24:17] But I would add yes, 1000% cuz they will tell you that honestly. And the one thing that I've learned telling lots of stories to lots of young kids is it's not about a good or a bad story. It's about a good or a bad telling. Yeah. Right. So you mentioned doing the voices or doing, you know, I have made up, I do a lot of made up stories, but even like books.

[00:24:41] If I do them with silly enough voices or enough inflection in my tone or pausing or you know, stopping and looking at the kid in the eye and then going again if the telling is right. Yep. You know, my kids know that. I tell a lot stories and I have a particular series of stories that with characters that I've told.

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] There have been times when I've. In the middle of it, not know where the story was going. It basically just ended it in the beginning. But because I told it with such energy, yes, they were engaged. They thought it was wonderful. Yes. And so yeah, the voices and the characters, and then also making the stories, even if it's not, even if you're reading a book, you know, if you're reading a book out loud to kids.

[00:25:23] You can find a way to make something in the story relevant and next to the children. So yes, even if it has something to do with a tree, you pause for a minute and you go like our tree out there, you know, or whatever. Anything, even the smallest of details, if you can make that somehow relevant to like, The carpet they're sitting on or the chair they're sitting on.

[00:25:46] Anything that becomes relevant all of a sudden, then they're in the story with you. Yes. Yeah. Awesome. That's such a great tool to use because, yeah, I would frequently do that if there was something, like a question came up [00:26:00] in the story, not when I was laying down for rest time. That was very sacred time where the children were actually.

[00:26:06] Resting their bodies. But if I was doing other storytelling, it would always be, you know, if a question came up, I would ask them, Where do you think that little boy with the red bucket was going? You know? And why do you think he was going there? Yeah. And quite often those questions would then, Take our story cuz I'd stop reading from the book and we would go on a whole different story and quite often I'd just close the book up and then we'd just continue on.

[00:26:32] So that's another tool that educators can use too, to include that storytelling. So I wonder, you know, there was another part of your link in the bio that I read that I really loved. And we've just sort of touched on it a bit here, but I wanna share it because I just thought it was so beautiful. I found myself, I came to reside in the place I dreamed of living my entire life.

[00:26:54] I had a wife whom I dreamed of meeting, and I just had a baby boy. Life was certainly [00:27:00] imperfect. Life had its toil and troubles. Life was wonderful. I remember sitting on our back porch and realizing that this was also an adventure. This. Also a journey filled with magic and an almost unbearable sense of the unknown.

[00:27:16] There were risks to be taken. Yet this seemed like a different story than my hero's journey. I love that idea of the hero's journey and also the ordinary adventure. So my question around that particular topic, that's obviously a very adult centric kind of conversation there, but do you think that children are experiencing their own hero journey in the day to day?

[00:27:43] And do you think that us as educators being able to connect into that particular child's hero journey is going to have a massive benefit for connection with that child? Yes. The point though that I would wanna make [00:28:00] is that I actually believe that the hero's journey is only half of the story. And so what I was using in terms of the idea of ordinary adventures or foundational adventures, that's the other half.

[00:28:12] So you have foundational adventures on one side and the hero's journey on the other, and for teachers or educators or any caregivers to be aware of the fact. Absolutely. You know, children by definition, are the hero of their own adventure, right? They are the center of their universe, maybe next to their parents.

[00:28:33] And you know, what happens is, is that children do go through the hero's journey narrative. They go off into the world, they have all sorts of challenges. They bring home all sorts of treasures, and then, you know, Share that with their parents at the end of the day. And so, you know, especially kids who go to school, right when, when they leave their home, they're literally leaving on a journey, having a whole day's adventure, and then [00:29:00] returning to their home.

[00:29:02] Maybe changed on a daily basis, right? So for educators and for parents to recognize the storyline of that, where they go off, they have these challenges and they come home, changed. Every day is the first part. That's the hero's journey, and that's a way of really sinking into the challenges and the growth opportunities for children.

[00:29:27] At the same time though, these foundational and. Ordinary adventures, they're just as important because they're the things that actually train us to be heroes. Yeah. They're the ones that, you know, when we create routines, when we create rhythms, when we engage in. That's what gives us the tools to go off and have epic lives, you know, so when a kid leaves on the hero's journey, leaves and goes to school, and then spends the day helping to clean and play and cook [00:30:00] and you know, participate in all of the activities of daily living, they are getting these foundational skills that then they can journey home and share it in a much more grounded.

[00:30:13] Yeah. Right. So you need, I believe that in our culture right now, we have spent so much energy on the heroes journey, but we have not given enough to the mundane, to the ordinary, to the basic, and we need more of that so that we can have these massive, legendary, epic adventures. Yeah, I, I love that. I really love that you touched on all of that, because that's what we, uh, looking to do.

[00:30:39] And to make okay. Again, within an early childcare setting because we're so bound in red tape now and documenting this and, you know, reaching for that goal and having to do this, that mundane stuff that we've forgotten that that's the. Basis of human connection to community. And it's [00:31:00] so needed right now more than any other time, I think in our recent history.

[00:31:06] You know, it's such important. But you, you touched on parents too, and I really like the hero of your journey at this point, from my understanding, is the work that you are doing with dads, and I just think that is so important. Like so important. How could we as educators go about opening a space for the dads and the popps within our communities to become more involved?

[00:31:33] It's almost sometimes like we need to invite the men to step into the early child. Education settings because it definitely is a woman dominated arena and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing overly right with it, but it's just how it is. How do you think we could go about opening that invitation and a pathway and being able to support for the men to be able to show up within early [00:32:00] childhood education?

[00:32:01] If I had the perfect answer to that, you and I could, you know, change everything. But , it's such an important question. The first thing that you said, which I just love, is we have to invite them. You know, you mentioned that, and I think there's such an import there because you know, stories are self supporting, right?

[00:32:19] They keep themselves going and we have a story in our culture that men are a certain way and women are a certain way, and I know these are best generalizations, but the roles, the gender roles are actually bigger than we are. And so in order to move against these gender roles, We have to act against them.

[00:32:40] So we have to actively invite men, invite, you know, papas and fathers to come and do something. Maybe it's just for the fathers. We'll have an activity just for the fathers and children. That would be the first thing I would say is we have to, you know, basically act in accordance to what we really, truly want.[00:33:00] 

[00:33:00] I start with the assumption that even though most fathers. Well, I don't wanna say most fathers, there are significantly less fathers who show up at schools than mothers. That's a fact. It's not a judgment or anything like that, but I start with the assumption that every one of those dads loves their children dearly.

[00:33:20] Hmm. And are caring and doing the best they can. Hundred percent. So with that assumption, I may be wrong, but it's assumption I'm gonna hold onto Yeah, me too. If, If that's as if, Yeah. I mean, if that's the assumption, then I'm gonna start by inviting those men in. I'm gonna say, All right, what can we do for you?

[00:33:38] How can we get you more involved? Right. There are very stereotypical father child activities. Right? The tussling and the getting messy and the, you know, there's some stereotypical things. Well, let's do more of that in schools. Let's do more of that. You know, when we get fathers to volunteer, we can get them to volunteer for after school sports [00:34:00] relatively easily.

[00:34:02] Let's get them to volunteer to read a book to the kids in class. Let's get them to volunteer to paint and get really messy, you know, to take 'em for a walk in the woods. I mean, one of my favorite things to do is to go in and either go for a walk in the woods or when my kids were in kindergarten, they had an outdoor bread oven.

[00:34:20] And I didn't do this, but I watched one of the father who volunteered every Friday to sort of help stoke the fire throughout the whole time while the kids baked bread. And so he would stoke the fire and he was like, I love this. I called in late to work for 34 Fridays in a row so I could do this. You know?

[00:34:38] So cool. Um, so yeah, there is at first that, and then I think what has to happen is we have to share that. As fathers, as parents in general, but as fathers, we are no longer the hero of the story. We're the guide and what's what we do is it's so important to guide [00:35:00] our kids in their journey. That's, that's now what we've now sort of.

[00:35:06] Graduated to that role. Yeah. I used to joke, I'm a big Star Wars fan and I used to joke that I always wanted to be Luke Skywalker and then I found out IBI one Kenobi. Right. I don if that means much to you.

[00:35:21] That's so funny. So if we share the fathers that like there is a new adventure afoot, right? There is a new way to be the kind of hero, to be the man that you wanna be. And that's by helping your kids be present to the everyday moments, how to be there with them, right? And so we can teach Fri like, you know, in a very structural way.

[00:35:44] I know I'm talking in a sort of theoretical, but in a very specific way. We can have. You know, the communication often between teachers and parents. The mom often reads, I know even in our household, I don't do it enough. My, you know, my wife will say, Did you get that thing [00:36:00] from, I'm like, No, I didn't read it.

[00:36:02] No. You know, but. If teachers, and I'm hesitant to say this because I don't wanna put more on teacher's plates. I respect what educators are already doing, so I hesitate to say, Let's do more. I just think that, for example, if we were to send home some of the treasures that our kids discovered along the way with a message to dads, Hey, what's the story by, you know, ask your kid what the story behind this treasure.

[00:36:28] Hmm. Sit down and listen. Right? Yeah. And you know, we've done a lot of workshops in schools for fathers. That's something that I love doing and, and really helping dads see that it's different than the legendary things we thought we were gonna do. Our legendary things now are like, you know, changing diapers and, you know, making lunches.

[00:36:49] And so how can there be more of a, you know, if we center our kids, which I think is something you and I have talked about, and we, if we center like the import [00:37:00] of connecting with our kids. Then they're the heroes. They are the main characters. Yeah. And so the adults, we are all the supporting roles. We are the characters that help the kid along in their journey.

[00:37:12] And so how can we do that? Right? Help fathers figure out what their role is in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so important. Like, and it's really important to acknowledge that mother's mother and father's father, like our brains are built completely differently. Like there's no, That's the fact, you know, the space between the cortexes in a man are much thicker than they are in a woman, which means that information flies so much quicker than what it does for men.

[00:37:43] The role behind that or the energy behind that is so different, You know, and there's people that do both and they do it very, very well because they have to, and you intrinsically know what is needed, but it's really important for us to [00:38:00] acknowledge that. Men, father, they don't, mother and women, mother, they don't father.

[00:38:05] And it's so I think a really big part that educators need to understand or could be aware of is that the way to approach, to ask and to invite would be different. One of the things that I used to. Is have festivals within our service, and I would always invite, obviously the whole family and, and I acknowledge that quite often the timing is imperative when you're going to do things so that you can facilitate it for everybody where it's possible.

[00:38:35] But our favorite festival was the winter festival, and we would have someone be a fire warden because we would have a fire, and that person's job was to make sure that nobody would be injured by the fire. So, you know, I had a list of jobs that I used to send out and ask, actively ask for volunteers, and that was my secret way of , making sure [00:39:00] that people would feel included and that they had something that they could contribute.

[00:39:05] Cuz quite often they wanna be able to contribute as well. So. Yeah, it's those sorts of things. I see. I think it's really important for us to acknowledge that quite often in the day to day quick sharing of information, it is often between the educator and the mother and that we do sometimes forget that, hey, actually we can include the dad.

[00:39:25] So I love that idea of, you know, sending something home specifically for dad with, you know, a set of instructions, , because sometimes that can be really, really helpful and it's. You know, condescending or anything like that. It's like, Hey, here's how you can ask about today in a fun way that your child is going to really engage with you in that story and sharing of what happened for the day.

[00:39:52] So, and I would add, I think that would happen very quickly. That's one thing that, you know, one of the pieces that I teach the Deads is really. [00:40:00] Small things make big change. And so I think, you know, if you send something home to fathers and it was with a good tone and the ability to like, you know, share this and with like you said, instructions, if you do that in the beginning of the year, if you do that quickly, what you're doing is you're setting a culture which is creating a story about the classroom and the expectations and you know, the relationships.

[00:40:21] I think it would change very quickly if it was consistent in the. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. It is. It's that culture setting, that culture of things, and that creates boundaries and things like that as well. It's so important to do. It's something that we talk a lot about in our course. Now you have a course too, don't you?

[00:40:41] I do. I run a coaching course for fathers. Specifically for dads, It's a three month. The initial course is called Journeyman Foundations. Mm-hmm. . And it is a three month course for fathers to learn about these foundational adventures and [00:41:00] about these. Elements of, you know, being ob, one of being able to connect more powerfully in a lifelong way to their kids, to their partners, and with themselves.

[00:41:12] We actually just recently ended a group where the father, his sort of quest for this group was to be more engaged with his kids'. So he changed around some work schedule and he did the drop offs every day for three months, and the transformation that he had was incredible. It was really very powerful.

[00:41:33] So, yeah, it's a wonderful course where there's a mix between some downloadable materials and videos, but mostly we do weekly group coaching calls, and it's all based on this metaphor of, you know, fatherhood being a journey. Yeah. Wow. And it's a very different journey than anything else we've ever, ever experienced.

[00:41:52] Okay. It's a different type of a. Like I read it and I was like, Oh, just the journeyman. It just sounds, it's [00:42:00] that deeply connecting back to a time gone by. I feel like that's so ingrained in us because when you start telling stories, people instantly listen, you know, and, and you get such a greater engagement.

[00:42:13] So that journeyman, like I love reading Raymond e Feist and he has a lot of. Stuff and it's so cool, you know, and, and so the name of that really struck me and I was like, Oh, I love that. So if people wanted to investigate that more, how do they go about finding about that course? Well, I think the easiest way would be my email, That's jason@nourishedconnections.com and well, probably equally easy would be on Facebook or Instagram.

[00:42:42] I have, uh, pretty active on both. I gave them to you now. So Do you want me to say them now or, Oh, you can share them now. Yep. Okay. So it is pretty easy, You know, on Facebook it's Jason Freshman and on Instagram it's Jason s freshman, which I just sounds nicer. Yeah, so [00:43:00] instagram.com/jason s freshman, and if you send a message I will be sure.

[00:43:04] You know, at this point I'm the only one at Journeyman and I'm responding to everything that I get cuz I really, I love to connect with people, so, Yeah. Yeah. I, Any fathers

[00:43:17] Yeah, I think you know what's been really lovely with the dads that I've worked with is they have seen both an increase in communication and intimacy with their kids and their partners, which was a added benefit for them. They have. Been able to slow down, like we talked earlier about slowing down and being able to sort of really be in whatever you're doing as opposed to looking ahead.

[00:43:40] One of the guys who I worked with recently, his quest was to, as soon as he walked in, at the end of the day, put his phone down and not pick it up until bedtime. Mmm. You know, tell his kids bedtime and he said in three months it was a dramatic shift. He said he felt more connected with his kids than he had in a long, long, long time.

[00:43:59] Yeah. So [00:44:00] just that little thing. Yeah. I mean it maybe not so little, but just that one action. Yeah. Was something that was able to dramatically change the entire sort of culture of his house. That's amazing. It's so the phone, like that device, even though it's one itd bitty device, if you looked at an energy, you know the amount of connections that come off that and go worldwide now, like each one of those little lines is taking from us, which means that the people in front of us that are sitting right next to us, Have, but a shadow of who we actually are.

[00:44:42] When that thing is connected to us. I'm probably the world's worst person, like total hypocrite here saying this, but I know, and like consciously knowing and then acting are sometimes two different things. That's what I really loved about, [00:45:00] you know, reading your stuff online and connecting with you here is that, you know, it's that authenticity.

[00:45:05] It is. Slowing down it is that noticing the small things like, ugh, this afternoon was hectic. I couldn't wait for the kids to get bed just so that I could do the dishes on my own and just be in my own thoughts, you know, Because that's such an important thing to acknowledge within this parenting journey.

[00:45:25] That it's not always easy and it's not always fun. And it's exactly the same in education. It's not always easy, it's not always fun, and you have to own your humanness within that and just go, Okay, today's a write off. Tomorrow's another day, and let's start our story again. So, yeah. Oh, it's really well said.

[00:45:45] I love the way you say that because what's so important, you know, when I first started doing. Program. I had friends who didn't quite get it right away and they were like, Oh, it's a parenting program. And I was like, No, I'm not teaching you about timeouts or how to do bed times. Guys ask [00:46:00] about that. And of course I can help 'em with that, but that's not what it is, is, you know, I finally came to say like, this is how you can learn to be a more grounded and connected man, which will make you a better father.

[00:46:11] Yep. And better a partner. Yep. And a better partner. And frankly, a better, you know, at whatever you're doing, you know, really, like when you're aware of your values. And you're aware of your own inner obstacles, cuz those are the two found. You know we talked earlier about train, test tell, you know, they are foundational story.

[00:46:30] Yep. The two things that you get in the training element are knowing what your values are, what are your core values? What are the things that are most important for you for this particular part of your quest, your journey. Right? And then we also get to know, What's getting in the way? What are the obstacles?

[00:46:48] What are the challenges? You know, what are the energy patterns, behavior patterns, thought patterns, All of those things that get in the way, Like you said, I know I can put down my device, but I [00:47:00] don't. All right, well let's figure out what it is that's doing that. Yeah. So now I can have a talk with my values and I can have a talk with my challenges and I can make a better choice.

[00:47:10] Yeah, yeah. Even if it's in the moment, cuz I increase my mo, you know, I increase my awareness of myself and of my, you know, challenges and you know, educators as well. I mean, I think I said earlier, my mom was an educator and the thing she taught me very early on was, it's really okay to take a. It was one of the best lessons I ever got.

[00:47:30] Like ca you know, she was working in New York City, which were chaotic big classes, you know, , very large classes and only two adults in them. And it would get chaotic. And I remember she would able to like step away from the chaos and allow the chaos. Yeah. So that she could get centered and. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:51] And I remember that being a very powerful thing that had an impact on me early on. Yeah. You know what I really appreciate about your [00:48:00] course though is that it's giving men the space to be men with other men, but talking about things that you've been conditioned to not. And to, Oh, that doesn't happen.

[00:48:14] We're just getting on with it. You know? And because that's often the narrative behind the men is that, you know, you go to work, you provide for your family and anything beyond that, you know, is drinking beer and watching the footy with the boys. You know, there's a big need for our society to recognize that men are absolutely emotional beings and so are little boys.

[00:48:38] And we have to teach them because I don't know how old you are. I'm 42, and so I'm one of the first sort of, we call them the latch key kids here in Australia, and we were the ones that had the key to get into the house and we were home alone after school. Yeah. Because the parents were working and you know, we often were the first lot that were in [00:49:00] full-time daycare.

[00:49:02] And so those values, when you've been in a daycare setting, it's really important to have the right teachers around you because they are imprinting their value set on the children and you as an educator for those listening to the podcast. You are imprinting your value set onto those children. Some of those children are in your care eight hours a day, five days a week.

[00:49:25] They spend more time conscious awake time with you than they do their own family. So it's super important for us to recognize that the values that we instill in the children have to be of sound moral, you know, they have to be. Quality, and I love that your course actually opens that conversation up for men because there's a whole heap of healing that has to happen within our society because of the way our society has grown us all up.

[00:49:57] I really honor and respect that you are opening that [00:50:00] space and that you are going there and you are holding that space for the men, because I tell you, our world really, really needs it right now. I agree. I think, you know, for me, It's about redefining what manhood and masculinity and frankly what strength is.

[00:50:17] You know, strength is about connecting. You know, there's power in, you know, partnerships. And so the idea that, you know, a big part of the program is that. The work we do to redefine what masculinity is and what fatherhood is, is social activism. It is making social change. And so, you know, I would say that every time a man steps off of the sort of soap box of anger, To really figure out what's underneath that is changing the world.

[00:50:47] Yeah. That is acting because their kids are gonna see it, you know, their partners are gonna see it. And this is the element of like how that starts. And so men can be [00:51:00] strong, you know, men can be really, you know, powerful and present, but it's in a connected, partnered way that is actually what we're meant to be.

[00:51:10] Yes. Right. This is about real strength and real, like, you know, men are nurturers. Yeah. You know, there's a very small difference between nurture and nourish. Yep. Right? Yeah. And so we aren't just bringing back the food, We're also feeding, you know, And so to say that men are emotional beings. Absolutely. And yet it doesn't have to be soft.

[00:51:33] It doesn't have to be. Unfortunately, it said, it's one of my least favorite sayings, but people say that a lot of men's work is about feminizing. Mm. And that's such a horrible, horrific way of putting it because, well, number one, no, we're redefining masculinity as a new strength, but it also is saying that the feminine is weak, which is we absolutely not true.

[00:51:57] Right? And so like, why are [00:52:00] we having a double in insult there when instead we can really get to like what the mature male looks? You know what their mature mile looks like, which is really the healer and the trickster and the element of being able to connect on a way that they can see what is truly important and act on it.

[00:52:19] Yeah, I love that. Ah, that's so cool. I hope lots of people come and do your course because. Men because you know, particularly now, you know, I know what's happening in Australia right now with all the political unrest that we have here and all that of stuff. And I know it's everywhere as well. But I can only speak for what's happening here.

[00:52:39] It's been so wonderful because. At present, the women are standing up. The women are at the forefront of this because it's like you're coming between our babies. No way. But what's happening is the men are coming behind us and they are offering their support and their strength from [00:53:00] behind in this really gentle.

[00:53:02] But stoic way, and it feels so good, it actually creates this strength of unity now. Whereas before, I've been activists in many different things in different areas before it's felt like it's just, you know, that's. Your work, you know? And there's definitely space for women's work and men's work, but there is definitely space where we need to come together.

[00:53:27] And I just, I feel like your course is opening that space for the men's work, but it leads the pathway back to the together work. You know, there's an abundance of things available for women to do their work, you know? But it's not been so open for the men, and I think it's so great that you're doing it, and I hope.

[00:53:47] lots of people get on board and can go and have a look and, and join with you. So thank you very much for creating that space for the men because uh, it's important, important work. Thank you [00:54:00] so much. As you can tell, I like to talk about it, but I'm gonna take in some of the things that you said as well and I'm gonna take them with me.

[00:54:06] So I really appreciate the conversation. This is wonderful. Yeah, it's been awesome. I think we could wrap all night, but I'm very aware that it's been quite late for. So we might wrap it up here. But thank you so much, Jason. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you and to meet with you and yeah, I just can't wait for other people to hear your story too.

[00:54:25] Oh, likewise. And my one request is that we find some way to stay connected because, No, yeah. Who are, you know, in addition to the wonderful conversation, I have wanted to talk to someone in Australia for so long and I just haven't been connected, so can we please stay connected? I would love that.

[00:54:42] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't doubt that we'll invite you back again to the podcast because it was such a, I didn't expect our story to go that way, but it was so wonderful. So thank you so very much. Excellent. Thank you. And yeah, let's be in touch for sure. Thank you so much. All [00:55:00] right, well thank you so much.

[00:55:01] Hi, friend. Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you got a lot out of today's episode. When we work on our own, we can sometimes be in a silo, so having new perspectives and different ways of looking at things is vitally important for the growth of our. Individual selves and our professional selves as well.

[00:55:22] We love feedback. So if you felt compelled to share what you thought of today's podcast, we would love to read your thoughts. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcast that helps our podcast to get out to the wider community and the more that hear what we have to share. We think the better it is.

[00:55:42] Thanks so much, friend. We'll see you next time. Till then, big love.